This is an answer to Wyatt in a comment from my previous post about the Dresden Files RPG. He asked what I didn't like about FATE.
FATE is at its core FUDGE. And FUDGE at its core is just a resolution system.
By that, I mean a method of rolling dice to see if an attempt at something is successful or not. The difference between that and an true RPG system in my mind is the difference between playing a game of chess, and rolling a couple of dice to see if you're declared the winner of a game of chess.
FATE adds some not uncommon chrome to the core FUDGE Mechanic. Fate points that when expended add to the roll (hence the system name I imagine). Also some other small details like Aspects which strikes me as a bit of concept theft (not a bad thing) from RISUS, those can be called upon to generate Fate points and/or provide other modifiers in various ways.
The result is a very bare bones systems. Characters sheets that wouldn't fill and index card and very little to actually do from a game play point of view. Sure you can decide to shoot someone, but the game is too course to handle the tactical details of that except as non-rule connected descriptive fluff. Sure you have a character, but one with a very limited number of mechanically defined handles for the player to hold.
Which is why the authors claim that FATE (to quote their website):
"focuses on telling stories and balancing characters based on story significance, rather than points and cool powers. It's the system of choice for GMs who are looking for rules that get out of the way of the story, but still provide enough structure to get the job done."
I'd phrase that differently: FATE is a terrible game system, only useful to add a degree of randomness to whatever story you or or players happen to be railroading.
Now to be fair, if actually playing a game isn't the goal- FATE is a rather fine simple resolution system with enough chrome to almost invoke the favor of the setting. It's better than most that attempt the same thing.
But it's FUDGE, its simple. You don't need to spend money on the game books to use it. I wouldn't send Evil Hat Productions a dime even if I liked the ideas behind their designs. Do it yourself because to a large degree that's what the (free to anyone) FUDGE system demands anyway.
Why people blow their hard earned money on works that a monkey could do in his spare time is beyond me. Unless it's their parents money and they need to fill the bookshelves in the basement...
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27 comments:
FATE is available for free too if you wanted to go that route and you aren't interested in a system tailored to a setting.
Personally, I can see your perspective, I excel at designing games with realistic resolutions and innovative solutions to nagging gameplay problems. I like crunch, I like a system that covers all the bases in detail and I like a system that I can mess with to make a customizable character.
I will admit that FATE and other such systems give me slight misgivings in the fact that I doubt that the open structure (IE: You write in the aspect "Can shoot the wings off a fly.") offers the same degree of fulfillment that building a similar character within the mechanical constructs of the game does. The old adage: when you can do anything you're usually stumped, seems valid.
Having said that I really don't get the impression that you have the credentials to call the system outright "horrid". I can't actually recall you advocating any system other than HERO. You've based your judgment of Evil Hat on that they only brought out 2 books for Spirit of the Century, and you've based your judgment of the FATE system on what you know about FUDGE which it's derived from. This to me indicates that you're basing your opinion on only the most shallow of surface impressions. I wouldn't have a problem with that normally, there's nothing wrong with being loyal to a particular game because it's what you enjoy and ignoring other games because you know that they're not what you're into. However I do take issue when you make a definitive statement like 'the game sucks' from your position of credibility without at least a tentative grasp of the topic. Curmudgeon, I can accept, I like that you're honest about your assessments and your insights are usually quite good but this latest batch has diminished your credibility in my eyes. At least when RPGPundit reviews FATE stuff and says he hates it, he proves that he understands the game.
And that's the thing, if you'd bothered to look past basic impressions, you'd have found out that every game FATE has ever been the system for has been customized to be part of the setting. Sure you could call it "just a resolution mechanic" if you're JUST looking at the resolution mechanic but looking at Starblazer Adventures or Diaspora it's pretty apparent immediately that there is far more to those games than that.
Helmsman, normally you're a little more careful than this.
There was a link in the article directly to the FATE system and a number of downloads that apply to their various games. So you screwed up pointing out something that was already pointed out.
Admitting the tweaked version for DF isnt' there yet. But given the differences between the other games- I doubt it suddenly make it a completely different experience.
Additionally I used those actual FATE downloads for my article, so you screwed up on that rant as well.
And then really? A person has to like a wide array of RPGs to comment on them? Head over to RPGBlog II then, Zachary loves everything. I'm not Zach.
I never said you have to be familiar with anything, you track smart ideas from where you sit quite often. The only issue from my end was you touting a (very valid) opinion as universal fact in your earlier post. Now I admit you cleaned that up in this one and I'm probably channeling a bit of my steam from that. The points you make, I don't disagree with for the most part, however I still see fun to be had in these games because there's diverse play opportunities with fairly little barrier to entry. It's not my ideal system but I'm still pushing to play in some games ran by it.
i can definitely say that you're just talking out of your arse. I have pre-order the game and I have received the free pdf of the two rule book. They did a phenomenal job.
Actually, what you should have done is to take some time to just look at their web site: http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/
There, you would have find many evidences that they did a great deal of work to bring justice to the Dresden universe. Look at this chapter example ... Gorgeous layout, lots of crunchy stuff.
And look at Harry's Character sheet
Can you still say believe that "Characters sheets that wouldn't fill and index card and very little to actually do from a game play point of view".
I actually encourage you to look deeper in the web site and the various design diaries posts they did. If you can pass your (unfounded) apprehension, you will see that they did a really great job. You may not like the FATE system (and this is your prerogative of course), but don't make those hasty judgments based on pure FUD.
I hope you enjoy the games if you get to play. For what FATE does (and the claim for what it does is very clear- "it gets out of the way", i.e. isn't much a game system).
Myself, if I wanted something in that line- I'd ditch the rules completely and go system-less.
Under no conditions would I pay someone for something like this. I have all the novels, and a tweaked Fudge just isn't worth spending money on.
You're entitled to your preferences, but I do take issue with your representation of how Rules-Lite or Narrative-High gamers are like.
"Whatever story you or your players happen to be railroading"? Really? Can they all be railroading a story at the same time? I think there's value in placing drama before rules. I really do. And it can happen in extremely free-form games, with hardly any notes or "events that MUST occur.
I don't use FATE, but you might as well have said this about any game that has a stronger focus on "role" than on "playing". If I were an extremist, I'd be calling Hero and other crunchy systems and the way they are often played as "video games without the graphics". Which I think is what you've done from your end of the spectrum.
You're free not to like FATE and that kind of rules lite approach, but I don't think you can call it invalid (and you don't). If you're going to use a very simple system though, then setting is king. And I could definitely see myself spending money on a setting with an integrated lite system. (In fact, I have.) FATE, the system, like Fudge, like GURPS Lite for that matter (which isn't that lite) are all available for free anyway. No money spent.
FATE isn't a bad system, it's just bad at doing the things you like from your RPGs.
Fil: I did all that except the pre-order. And I stand by my opinion.
It's a lot of fluff that in the end isn't mechanics and/or is the type of fluff I'd do on top of any other system in creating the world, the characters and the background.
The character sheet is an excellent example of this. The actual mechanically important values could be easily contained on a index card.
That is the point of the system, it is what the designers claim for it. And I find it interesting that you can't figure that simple fact out.
Siskoid: I agree with most of your post and only wonder why you thought it necessary to make it at all.
I do wonder however why you are willing to pay for this? Do you not own the novels? If you do, why would you pay money for someone's vision of those novels? Wouldn't playing to your own be better?
Is modifying an already existing "Rules Light" system beyond your abilities?
Or does the money not matter to you at all? And are you willing to trade your vision of the settings for someone's else to save time?
First, I made the comment because your post made me think and made me want to react. There's a comment link, and I clicked it. If you don't want to attract any kind of discussion, then I recommend getting a website, and not a blog. So I'm even more mystified at THAT reaction from you.
As for your other questions. Money matters very little to me. I'm not wealthy by any means, but I doubt a rules-lite setting would cost me much more than a meal in a restaurant.
If a game WAS based on a novel (and I have plenty of GURPS books like that, regardless of whether we mean Dresden Files or not), then I imagine a setting book would provide a few things the novels wouldn't, like an easy reference to the material, adventure seeds, tips on how to use that setting in an RPG context, etc. And I have quite a number of licensed games for which I do not own the original material! I might be interested in gaming Lensman based on its premise without ever having read an e.e.doc smith novel (and the style is stiff enough that I wouldn't want to).
I'm quite capable of fixing my own rules (and have) or preparing my own setting information (and have), but not all talents are found in every individual, nor should we underestimate time pressures some GMs are under. Dresden Files might very much appeal to people who want to play in that setting but have little time to research the setting, write their own adventures and/or learn a whole new complex system.
Another thing that strikes me. You use the word "necessary". I didn't find it "necessary" to respond to your post. I just had the time and the inclination. I was a choice and no one forced me to do it.
The same thing can be applied to buying, playing, modifying or not modifying any element of FATE or Dresden Files (which I should note I currently have no interest in myself). You talk as if getting the game makes it "necessary" to use every element of the author's vision (which is necessarily a less thing than that gamer's own? there's no inspiration to be had from others?). It isn't. None of it is necessary.
Siskoid: I've left the comments enabled in hope of finding some interesting comments. Which can be quite the quest in itself.
But yours was mostly just a statement of "people have different tastes". It not only doesn't need to be said as it's a given- it's boring when it is and reflects poorly upon the person who's saying it as well.
I find your reasons for buying this set of rules more interesting because that is at least an individual's opinion.
I don't think much of it in your case as it basically comes down to "Lazy people want games like this".
But it what it is.
I don't think that characterizes my points very well at all, but thanks for playing our game.
I am left wondering if you'd have told me my comments were useless if I'd just posted "Rock on! FATE sucks! Totally agree!" and left it at that. Just sayin'.
Siskoid: It would have been pointless, but not insulting so I likely wouldn't have made a comment at all.
I honestly can't take this post seriously. (I say that not to be inflammatory, but as a writing critique.)
Of course FATE is just a resolution system with a bit of chrome.
Nobody plays FATE bare or calls it an RPG. It's a toolkit, from which a number of different RPG systems have been created.
It would be like me saying, "Dungeons & Dragons is at it's core d20. And d20 at its core is just a resolution system," and then concluding that Dungeons and Dragons isn't a roleplaying game. The series of statements are not logically connected.
I can only assume you had a substantive point, but by the end of the article it has not been communicated. I'm left guessing one of two things: "This guy hates non-simulation systems (and therefore I can ignore anything he writes about them)" or "This guy doesn't know a 'complete' RPG from a hole in the ground." I suspect neither is the intention of the post?
d7: Sorry, but I can't understand what you wrote. The words almost make sense, but the only thing point that seem to be making is that you're incapable of reading.
Thanks for the answer Gleich.
I am a fan of a wide variety of systems, but from reading your other posts, I can see why you'd detest FATE. Having read it, I know I wouldn't want to play it.
I'm more of a middle-of-the-roader as far as rules are concerned, I want enough to sink my teeth into, but not too many, though I can take some of the larger systems (like GURPS) and play them enjoyably (probably not GM them though). I am very curious about HERO system now, so I'll check that out.
So a game system sucks because it's not huge and complicated? No wonder you're a Champions fan...
mxyzplk: Champions is a game for people who like to game.
FATE is not.
Huge and complex has nothing to do with it.
In fact other than character generation (which can be handled by those who happen to enjoy it for the rest of a group), Champions is much easier and less massive than 3rd or 4th edition D&D.
If you can handle GURPS, you should be ok with HERO.
HERO front-loads it's complexity into character creation, the actual play rules aren't any worse than GURPS and IMO easier.
So, if you (or someone in your group) can get the hang of making characers- it's easy. If you need a few examples I'd be willing to help.
They seem to have a character generator too, which is cool. Though I don't often like using those things.
I got started reading it yesterday. So far I like it more than GURPS. It seems to me that (and this is my impression starting to read, could be wrong) HERO's system has a good focus on character creation. GURPS seems more like "let's define everything ever" while HERO's skills are primarily about making characters, and things to actually do, rather than a bunch of skills just there to fill in.
For example, I rather like that instead of a dozen science-related skills, we have "Science Skill" and it's like "just pick some." I feel like I've learned a lot about game design from GURPS and now from HERO that I can apply to my own homebrew projects, so even if don't get to play them, I'm glad I read this, and will continue to read it!
Wyatt: HERO can be used to create everything, but doesn't have to be.
I will point out one additional thing- how you create characters and items willd determine the nature of the game. The defaults given in the books is somewhat D&D like in favor (the low damage for weapons and the like). This is even more so in HERO 6th.
But you don't have do it that way. For example HERO does realistic and gritty, you just have to build things so their realistic and gritty.
It's true, I do love a lot of different RPGs.
I may be the only person who loves both Risus and Rolemaster.
-Zachary
RPG Blog II
Zachary The First: Uou are an odd bird. Don't forget to toss OSR in there, which has to be newest insanity out there.
I should however admit something, in addition to AoH and HERO System...
...I also like system-less.
But I hate everything in-between.
You've got to admit, Gleichman...you're an odd bird too.
Interesting discussion on FATE/FUDGE which I really *want* to like conceptually, but which when I start to dig into things I get more and more disappointed. I like parts of it, but some of the general assumptions leave me a bit flat.
I think FUDGE's best use is as a translation tool between systems, but that's another point altogether.
I did really love FUDGE's Magical Medley though, which I recommend if you're designing a magic system of any sort.
~Adaen of Bridgewater
highadventuregames: Yes, I'm an odd bird too :)
Which general assumptions, perhaps I could clear something up?
Also I'm interesting in how you would use FUDGE as a translation tool. That might actually make things like the Dresden Files useful to me, but I just don't see enough there to grab hold of for a translation say into HERO System.
@Gleichman: Guilty as charged!
See, I can go *almost* systemless--just can't quite close the deal, I guess.
Word Verification: buntski: Something to look out for from Russian batters.
I just saw your response from May 1st. I feel that FUDGE/FATE make a good translation tool because of their relativism.
In converting a game to a favored system, using a a more open system with relative terms to describe capabilities often helps in preserving the "feel" of the setting or genre. It can also help in terms of consistency over time. If you document that a "Great" or "Good" has a set implication in HERO...you have a guide for the future. Anyway, your mileage may vary.
~Adaen of Bridgewater
~Adaen of Bridgewater
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