In practice, there are basically two reactions players have to such systems.
- They treat it as a clue in much the same way an improv actor would treat a suggestion. A jumping off point for the immediate and future decisions.
- They treat it as a break of their internal model of the character, often counter to how he would or would not react under the given conditions.
There is however something of a gray area in disadvantages such as those found in GURPs and HERO. Here you're getting points for (ahead of time) restricting your character behavior to something you're already intending to do anyway. They should as a result be played by the owning character, and if the GM is needing to point them out there is likely a serious disconnect that needs to be resolved.
For those in the first group, good luck and fun. Way too alien for me to deal with.
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There is however something of a gray area in disadvantages such as those found in GURPs and HERO.
For me it's less a gray area than problematic. Like you said, it's giving the player a bennie for something they were either already planning to do or something they think they can work around or ignore. GM oversight on player disadvantages is too low on my list of priorites, and so would not be fair for the rest of my group.
I'm not saying that a group can't carry this off through the honor system, but I'd rather concentrate on other things.
I think if the player is going to work around or ignore the disadvantage- then (using the HERO rulebook statement on the matter) they get zero points for the disadvantage.
If they started the game with it, I'd docked them their XP until it was paid off (maybe even with 'interest'). Or more likely I'd kick them from my game as they wouldn't be fitting in very well anyway.
However I think taking the disadvantage for something you're already going to do is perfectly legit. If I have a Paladin's Code, was intending to follow that code, and then did so in the game (indeed, used the points to create the Paladin in the first place)- that limits my in-game options and is worth the points. That is the exact game contract such systems work under.
As for focusing on other things, completely fair. Where we turn our focus is really the reason we pick one set of rules over another.
I like a good Sanity mechanic now and then. The best simulator of a person may be a person, but I'm not sure the best simulator of a crazy person is a sane person. I'm more bothered by the random charts for exactly what form the insanity takes than the San score itself.
@jamused, if you want to call all the actors and writers involved in the creation of successful insane characters over the years insane, I guess you may do so :)
As to the SAN score itself, I have problems even there. Movement up and down the scale is typically unconnected to anything but the random roll of the dice. Such a thing works best if one takes the view that they are not really about sanity- but about a mind control/altering influence transcending space and all that.
A HERO 3D took that approach with 'Horror World', and under those conditions it almost makes sense. Still wasn't fun however :)
I'm in agreement with you on the 2nd point. What I've found somewhat valid is apply personality mechanics not as ways to justify or force a PC into a particular course of action, but to justify how they work with other people within the mechanics. In reality, how effectively you can work with a team relies heavily on your personality type and how it is applied to the group dynamic. Most games simply say teamwork adds modifiers together or something equally simplistic, but in reality it's far more complex than that. In that case I could see a personality system to govern how effectively a character works within a group to accomplish a rolled task as being a valid use.
@Gleichman - it's more that I wouldn't call what they were doing simulation. Their depictions strike me as much more about what the audience will find interesting, off-putting, or creepy than what might be going on in the mind of the insane person that compels the outward behavior. For instance, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Dustin Hoffman spent a lot of time studying how severely autistic people behaved for his performance in Rain Man...but it would surprise the heck out of me if he had any deep insights into how they thought.
@Tony, while I would agree with the point you make (there are people I work well with, and those I don't), I'm not sure how that would be expressed mechanically in a way that didn't come across a fake. Or why a group of PCs would want to use it.
@jamused, given that Hoffman is often said to be a method actor- he might disagree with you. Not that he would automaticall be right, but whatever the true case- I'd take it over the random charts and die rolls RPGs provide.
I prefer personality mechanics that only provide benefits when the personality trait or behavior is enacted. This gives the benefit, while limiting the constraint placed on the character and instead just rewards playing the role that you chose. The DM never has to enforce anything with these types of rules, and players don't have a straigh jacket placed on them.
Hi, my name is Leonardo and English is not my native language, so please try to forgive my mistakes (but feel free to point them out!). If something I write is just plainly incomprehensible tell me so and I will try to say it differently.
Actually, I think there are at least two other "classes" of Personality Mechanic that don't provide "any mechanical method for determining character decision or action".
The first class aims to encourage and reward the player when he chooses for his character a course of action which conforms to some predetermined "standard", usually specified by the player himself during character creation. These systems never penalize the player for (nor prevent him from) making his character behave in any way he desires. They simply make some decisions more convenient than others. Often the choice of which behaviours grant a reward can be dinamically changed by the player during the course of the session to reflect his interest in new fictional situations that could develop while playing.
Two outstanding games making use of such mechanics are The Riddle of Steel (Spiritual Attributes) and The Shadow of Yesterday (Keys).
The second class uses the Personality Mechanic to introduce one or more indicators that track the status of a character (or some of his aspects) and warns its player about the possible consequences of further specific actions. Once again, such systems never enforce a particular character behaviour: the player is free to take any decision he likes. The personality mechanic simply triggers the consequences of those decisions.
Some games adopting this kind of procedures are: Polaris, Bliss Stage, Grey Ranks, Sorcerer.
These two classes of Personality Mechanics are especially suited to thematic roleplaying because they never enforce a specific behaviour on the characters while, at the same time, they help players to make thematic statements about events and dilemmas encountered during play.
Bribing players with meta-game mechanics are really no different in my eyes. If anything, I consider it worse.
Well, they are not better or worse, just plainly different and suited to different kinds of play. Anyway, they ARE different because they never enforce, nor intend to enforce, a specific behaviour and the reactions they generate among players are different from those you list in your post.
As for bribing players, well, that doesn't really concern me. Most games have mechanics designed to reward players for particular behaviours: just think about the rules for giving out XPs in all different kind of RPGs. These rules intrinsically develop a value system, establishing those behaviours whose pursuit represents the most effective and fastest path to character's growth. It's just another way to bribe players, even if focused in a different direction.
I decided that this deserved it's own top level blot post.
But with respect to XP, I actually reject any focused XP reward system generally going with fixed values for being at the game.
I dig Sanity as metaphysical hit points.
@Jeff Rient- In the HERO 3D product I mentioned above, they were actual metaphysical hit points.
That supplement took the viewpoint that people didn't go insane because that's what people do when confronted by terror- but they went insane because the creatures themselves were 'attacking them' and altering their minds by force.
The ability was bought as an area effect Transform power.
Much better, and it also allows one to buy defenses against it which should be the case for certain types of characters.
In short, I agree with you Jeff- when they actually are metaphysical hit points and not a PM.
@Gleichman- I've been pondering how to implement personality mechanics in a realistic way, and while I'm far from having any sort of elegant implementation layed out I think one of the best examples of where to look with be in the computer game The SIMS, which does an excellent job of simulating character interactions based on personal interests and personality types.
@Tony- I don't have any experience with the SIMs other than seeing a few news articles on it. Not my cup of tea.
Granting that, I would like to suggest something that should be the first question whenever one considers importing computer game features.
Do you like watching other people play the SIMs?
If the answer is no, you may which to reconsider using its methods- for that is what you'd be asking of the other players at the table.
When I approached Personality Mechanics in my project, I did the following:
1. They never take away agency from the player. You can choose how to play the character at any time (note that things like mind-control or psychotic compulsion are different and can have the character run as an NPC).
If the player is absolutely not playing the trait then the rules say that it's something for the group to discuss.
2. The "points" you get for these are pretty minimal. That's true for almost all defect-style traits. This is on the theory that, for most things, an attempt to point-balance a defect at character-generation isn't going to work (the character with one-leg isn't going to be one that relies on sprinting in most cases).
It is also stated that PCs and "named NPCs" (meaning important NPCs) are generally immune to psychological effects--you can decide if your character is scared or not--but if you play a timid character and decide not to be scared by the creaky noises in the haunted house there's probably a disconnect going on that the GM may want to talk about.
This seems to me to be a pretty light-weight way to have these sign-posts in the game (if you want to play a lustful character you do get a couple of points for it) without removing agency from the player.
-Marco
@marcochacon, rather close to how I think disadvantages should be handled in HERO. I think their points are inflated, but never considered it worth even a house rule as I would up the the base to make up the shortfall.
A case of a problem not being worth solving.
Here's an example of a descriptive personality mechanic that I think works fairly well, from my friend Mac's homebrew: Every character has a score called Sexual Intensity, rated from 1-100. The only mechanical effect is to provide modifiers to resist magical seduction (succubi and the like). Other than that it's just a guideline to how interested/tempted your character is by sex. There are no bonuses or penalties to anything the character chooses to do or refrain from doing, and no bribes or punishments for playing in/out of character. It's just a piece of information that the players sometimes choose to consider when they're contemplating, say, being unfaithful. Some players seem to incorporate it into their mental model, some roll against it if they find themselves conflicted, others ignore it entirely.
@jamused: You know, that sort of thing doesn't bother me much. The ability for the player to decide to opt out, modify his reaction, or go completely with it removes most of the problems.
It appears to me to be on par with the HERO/GURPs disvantages at that point.
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