So instead let's do something else fun, playing with HERO System which in my opinion isn't used fully even by the owners of the game line themselves.
During some rather nice exchanges over Personality Mechanics this week (I'm not done with those, more to come next week), one example that came up was The Riddle of Steel and it's ability to give bonuses when a character encounters pre-defined conditions.
To use the example given me, a character may have: Love of Queen, and thus gain in-game mechanical bonuses to roll when defending the Queen, attempting to do something in the Queen's name, etc. Whatever the group feels fits.
Here's the same thing in HERO System:
- Love of the Queen: +2 Overall Skill, No Conscious Control, GM determines when the condition applies, how the bonus will be used, and if all the bonus will be used (-2). Real Cost: 20, Active Point Cost 7.
The limit for No Conscious Control is normally a -2 reflecting not only the lack of control, but a rather rare firing of the power. This could be reduced if the character in question was one of the Queen's guards, agents, or lover- perhaps only to a -1 (giving a final Active Cost of 10 points).
I actually do this sort of thing for characters from time to time. It's not a Personality Mechanic as such since as it's not something every character gets. But is instead something specific that the character does because that's who he is. Buying it instead of it being a required feature of the setting makes a world of difference.
Not that a GM couldn't require or provide some of these 'SAs'. That's the joy of HERO.
So stuff it TRoS, you're not that special. Been doing this sort of thing long before you appeared on the scene :)
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I didn't want to "bother" you again, but I need to.
The SA mechanic in TRoS is much more integrated with the rest of the system than what you seem to realize. I never described in details how the system works(*).
SAs are the foundation of the entire game: they can give out bonuses to skill checks, they signal to the GM what a player wants out of the game, they can be permanently spent to improve characters' attributes, skills and proficiencies (like "XPs"), they act as a pacing regulator and they are integrated with the Insight mechanic (a "karma" mechanic which measures the total number of SA points accumulated by a player and allows him to build a better new character should the current one die). They really are at the heart of TRoS and I can't convey the importance of their effects without explaining how the whole game works! If you want to really understand "what's new" with the SA mechanic the only thing you can do is learn yourself how the system works.
This doesn't mean that you can't find a way to implement a similar mechanic in the HERO system. You probably can, but it would require a lot of work and such a modificaton would radically affect the feel of the game.
(*) A brief explanation on SAs
Each Spiritual Attribute is given a type, a descriptor (not always) and a score ranging from 0 to 5. Example:
(type) Passion: (descriptor) Love the Queen, (score) 3.
There are six different descriptors available: Drive, Passion, Faith, Destiny, Conscience and Luck (later a supplement added the SA Oath and removed Luck).
In the example above, each time the player act in a way that shows, furthers or defends his character's feelings about the Queen, or the Queen herself, he gains a number of bonus dice to skill checks equal to the score of the SA and then that same score is increased by one or two points.
@Leonardo: HERO is much more interesting than you seem to realize. Let's break down your list:
1. they can give out bonuses to skill checks,
Check, The HERO Version does this
2. they signal to the GM what a player wants out of the game
Check. The HERO Version does this
See: http://whitehall-paraindustries.blogspot.com/2009/01/correct-way-of-judging-point-systems.html
3. , they can be permanently spent to improve characters' attributes, skills and proficiencies (like "XPs")
Check, the HERO Version does this. HERO allows you to sell off existing abilities and traits if they no longer apply (in fact it allows you to completely rebuild the character under certain conditions in the wilder genres).
4. they act as a pacing regulator and they are integrated with the Insight mechanic (a "karma" mechanic which measures the total number of SA points accumulated by a player and allows him to build a better new character should the current one die).
This one HERO doesn't do out of the box, and it seem very setting specific. Bushido was the first game to use this mechanic.
5. he gains a number of bonus dice to skill checks equal to the score of the SA and then that same score is increased by one or two points.
Check, in HERO the GM is free to award XP to specific skills or abilities due to in-game events. HE could do this to the above ability any time it was called into play until it reached the campaign cap. I'd start it out at +1, and max it at +3 myself due to scaling in my campaigns (but that's open for other types of setting and power levels).
So 4 out of 5, and the missing one isn't something that suits all setting IMO.
On second thought, it is five out of five. HERO as I said does allow one to rebuild the character completely. One only needs to slightly extend this.
Thus if the character dies, the HERO 'SA' trait points could transfered to a new character all or in part.
But it's still a rather strange setting specific deal IMO.
So stuff it TRoS, you're not that special. Been doing this sort of thing long before you appeared on the scene
LoL, I probably think that phrase about any number of games that have popped up recently touting some fresh mechanic.
Thanks for shout-out!
The Hero System doesn't seem to get the love that it really deserves. I think most people are put off by the point-buy system and how complex it can get. I don't currently run a Hero System came because people tend to be scared off for some reason.
Thanks you for having a Hero System Post.
@Mad Brew: A huge amount of conflict has been generated by now knowning what the earlier games did, at what layer, or why.
@bonemaster: Very much agree. HERO is amazing in what you can do with it and I'll likely be making posts like this in the future.
It is highly demanding of its GMs. I found however that if the GM builds the characters for the players (using their concepts as a guild)- you can get over the player fear of that huge chunk of rules. They'll see cool things on their sheet and in the game- need in the end only to learn the core mechanics and those are rather simple.
At least one of my players loathes HERO, another isn't too fond, and two more would basically refuse to engage the crunch. I used to use it for everything, several groups ago, but I thought it worked much better for supers and maybe high-power SF than anything else. In low-level fantasy there's a lot of unused stuff (most segments in a turn, ED except for very specific monster types, and so forth), so I actually did a cut-down version I called Fantasy HERO, Jr...
There really is nothing new under the sun.
Brian, wanted to say thanks for your articles re: HERO. It's made me want to take a second look at this system. I also think it's a testament to what folks can do when they really take the time to learn a system and break down the nuts and bolts--something I have not done enough of in the past.
Gleichman, as I suggested in one of my comments to your other post, there is no point in discussing this PA thing. You just want to prove that all Personality Mechanics are the same and there is nothing new under the sun. I will not say anything about the HERO system because I don't know how it works.
Your reply appears to confirm that you can build a system which would work in a way similar to TRoS even if by default the different pieces are not as tightly integrated as in TRoS (a fact I never questioned). I also never questioned the quality of the HERO system.
My post was meant to warn people that the SA mechanic was something more complex than a simple way to grant a bonus to die rolls.
I still don't understand if you know both games you are talking about. I ask because it looks like you don't know TRoS and you are basing your considerations on my brief and incomplete (as I stated clearly) summary of the SA's main properties. I hope I'm wrong but if this is indeed the case then what's the point in going on?
If you really aren't that much interested in knowing how TRoS works and discovering if it can contribute something new to the hobby (however small) that's perfectly ok! But how can you feel so confident in comparing one system with another one you almost don't know about... well, that's a mistery to me.
Regards!
@jamused: HERO sells a little book called Sidekick that might come close to matching your own scaled down version.
Your players might react better to Sidekick, leaving the more complex elements of the full rules to the GM to handle.
As a side note, I don't care for HERO in the Fantasy genre. Getting the fine degree of balance and control that I require for generational campaigns would be too much work for me and the 'feel' is off. Which is why I use Age of Heroes for that instead.
@Zachary The First: When I first started this blog, doing little HERO articles like this was one of my goals. I'm happy I finally got to one.
@Leonardo: I answered the points you made, it's not my job to going looking for more. You set up the list of concept goals, and HERO met them as I said it would. If you don't like the result, don't attempt going down that road.
And you might well be surprised at how well I know TRoS and how far back I go with it. It's a game, none of them are that complex.
To help you out a bit here, I will say that TRoS does most (but not all) of it's work at Game Layer while HERO is splitting it between Game and Near-Meta Game Layers.
Thus the feel of reaching the goal will be different in both systems even if both can easily reach it. And of course the favor of the base mechanics are very different.
Neither is more "integrated", TRoS SA are based upon SAs (a single concept) and HERO is based upon Character Points (a single concept). You're just mistaking a single layer focus (TRoS) as "integrated".
That's fine in a way, but it caused serious blindspots at the Forge, and I'm seeing the same Blindspots in you. There is more to an RPG than the Game Layer, far more.
Sorry, this is a waste of time. You didn't answer my points. Not even one. Simply because I didn't made any point at all. You simply stated that the HERO system could potentially do the same things TRoS does (which, by the way, is meaningless... we don't even know if people have ever actually used the HERO system this way). That has never been my point in the first place.
Good luck with your blog and with the development of your theory. I really mean it! Goodbye.
@Leonardo: of the five points you raised, I've use 3 (4 if one counts a slightly different context as close enough).
I'm sorry TRoS wasn't as special as you thought, and that the fact that people can and have been doing what it does in other ways for a very long time now disappoints you.
Good Luck out there.
I'm a TRoS Player who (unhappy with Driftwood's lack of activity) is in the process of converting to HERO System.
When playing TRoS I always used its optional Point Buy Character Creation System, so HERO appeals to me there.
One thing however that I haven't found HERO to be able to do (and what led me to this BLOG) is that I haven't found a way to Intergrate SPIRITUAL ATTRIBUTES. Gleichman, HERO really doesn't quite do it. Although your ideas have given me my ow ideas on how to atleast simulate it.
What Leonardo said about SA's being more intergrated is truth.
In TRoS a Character has Five SA's these are the five things most core to his very being. It is is what motivates and drives him, his passions, loves, hates, Oaths, even his Destiny!
The SA's serve to tell the GM exactly what kind of Game the Player wants to Play, and then the GM MUST design that game, the reason why is because SA's don't just give bonus dice when the Character acts in line with them, SA's are the XP of the Game. That means, no matter how many Orcs you kill you will NEVER gain a "level" or a Point of XP, the ONLY way to gain XP is to follow you SA's. As such it is completely intergrated in the game.
Now HERO system can do this, but it would be a House Rule, basically ever time a Character gets bonus dice for one of his "Spiritual Powers" he gains a point of XP, and also whenever he Role Plays in adherance with his Spiritual Power he gets a point of XP for RP'ing.
Anyway, now that I feel I have a way to implement SA's into HERO the next stop is to examine Combat! Peace!
Any point buy system (such as HERO) tells the what kind of game the Player wants to play- just as SAs do but in even more detail/
The player pays points for every single ability he has, and he has the option to improve or limit those abilities as well. Combined with Disadvantages and the options outline above- the player has in effect defined everything there is to know about his relationship to the campaign world.
Points in such a system are nothing more and nothing less than the player 'buying' the GM's agreement to tune his game to what was brought. Once you realize this about HERO System (and similar systems to various degrees)- you'll realize that very fun things are not handled.
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