Those who know me, know that I have a great fondness for things military (and great respect for the US military). That interest resulted in some semi-serious study of weapons, ballistics, etc. Research that I've applied to my house rules for firearms in HERO System.
This last week my attention has turned back to this other hobby of mine with the decision to start another (heavily modified) Morrow Project (MP, or just 'the Project') campaign for my group. MP for those who don't know is a post-apoc rebuild the world style campaign. I mixed it up with an alien invasion being the cause of 'The End' together with some Gamma World stylings for max coolness.
Decades have passed since the original game was made, and one of the first decisions I need to make is what type of gear do the players get. The original lists are outdated. The first question in that line- what rifle does the Project issue?
Few people quite understand that basically no nation has selected a outstanding standard issue rifle since WWII (when the M1 Garand was the perfect weapon at the right place and right time).
Many have selected rather poor weapons such as France (FAMAS) and England (L85A1) while others have selected effective (despite their limits, which are significant) weapons- US (M14, M16) USSR (AK47).
For the Morrow Project campaign, I wanted to use the most up to date US deployed combat rifle, or perhaps a soon to be deployed combat rifle.
To date, the M16 series remains the main combat arm of the US. It a effective weapon, highly accurate for what it is, low recoil, and one is able to carry a lot of ammo. However I've never really like it.
The shell is too small IMO and too often fails even against unarmored human targets. And in this campaign the Project knows that thin skinned humans will not be the only danger its teams will face.
Also for the Morrow Project's core mission of operation with little to no logistic support (a given for the Project during the first months of operation)- it's high maintainance requirements makes me look elsewhere. So off I go looking at near-future rifles.
The US Military development of combat rifles has a long and sad history. They've basically been looking for the next rifle since I was old enough to know what a rifle was. And they've never selected one.
The Advanced Combat Rifle program basically said that unless you can vastly improve the M16A2- we're not interested. And rifles can't be vastly improved unless they are no longer rifles (i.e. they must fire explosive shells), so that resulted in the Objective Individual Combat Weapon program which ended up saying that you can't get weapons like that down to a weight/size that can be carried.
So then they decided to split off the close range 'kinetic weapon' part of the OICW to make a new rifle... and then once again decide that it didn't offer vast improvements so they canned it.
Sigh. What a #$%# waste of time and money.
My own opinion on this is that while you can't get vast improvements- you certainly can do better. The M16 is under-powered and requires too much care. Fix that and you have a better weapon. The devil is in the details, and often that's what kills people. I'm happy with something 25% better, or 10% better, or even 5% better- for that saves the lives of some of our people and kills some more of the enemy. And that is the name of the game.
So for my coming campaign I've turned towards what the various US Special Forces are using as they often get the option to go outside the box on weapon selection. Here we hit some paydirt, as they seem to share my opinion of the M16/M4 series. However it seems they can't make much in a way of decision either and have been trying out a bunch of things never making a final decision.
These are however two leading weapon systems: FN SCAR, and the HK 416/417.
Both come chambered in 5.56x45mm NATO and 7.62x51mm NATO, the latter is solid and powerful chambering suited to the dangers of my Morrow Project campaign while the former would suit older and female characters without the strength need to handle the heavier version.
Both series offer greatly improved maintainance and reliability over the M16 series.
Some sources have stated the SOCOM has selected the FN SCAR, but others indicate that they really haven't received them in numbers yet- or haven't even ordered them (see the talk page from the wiki link).
For my own campaing use, I'm picking the HK416/417 weapons. I like the look better (less bulky), and the fact that it uses current M16 series parts outside the reciever is a major plus both in speed of deployment and in the possible use of spare parts the players may come across.
Now if only the US Military procurement monkeys can be as decisive as I....
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Darn. All of Hardkore's gun stats are 5 years old so the newest FN gun I have is the P90, and with HK the newest are the PDW and the G36. I'm a huge fan of H&K though I've never had occasion to fire one, so I'd go with the HK too just on principle.
So... you're probably busy, but I'm starting a closed playtest soon of a game that I'll go out on a limb and say has by far the best firearms rules of any TT RPG ever, and I'd be thrilled if you could be in it.
I question issuing two different rifles using two different rounds of ammunition. Post-apoc operations seems like the ultimate logistics test, so why not stick with one calibre? If a team members can't hack the 417, why not just give them a pistol, or maybe an SMG that uses the same round as the Project's standard-issue sidearm?
@Helmsman: So how does your system view the FiveSeven compared to the 5.56x45mm?
As for being in the playtest, I'm afraid I don't have the time. Sniff, can just keep the blog going some times.
@Jeff Rients: You make a good point, and I hadn't started my look yet into near-future SMGs which would be a good option.
One of the interesting things about the original Morrow Project game was that they had a ton of different weapons and ammo often in the same team. What I was going to do was a improvement even before considering your SMG option...
I'm currently deployed in Afghanistan, so I'm pretty familiar with my M-16, although I'm not a gun-nut.
For a Morrow Project type scenario, I'd take an AK-47 any time. There are some major advantages:
- Its highly reliable. The thing will never break. You could bury it in a mud pit, detonate a nuke, let it sit for 50 years, dig it up, and it'd probably still work, without a cleaning -- without jamming.
- The ammo will be easy to find in a post-apoc setting, as it was warsaw pact standard. Also, the round is big enough to actually kill someone, unlike 5.56, which is designed to wound, not kill.
- The weapons are easy to obtain clandestinely. The world is flooded in AK-47s and ammo for them. It would be a trivial matter to obtain large quantities of these as a standard-issue weapon to give to Morrow Project participants. It might be harder to conceal mass buys of more advanced weapons.
- They are likely to still be around in the post-apoc world. Morrow Wind teams may want to be able to blend in with local survivor populations. If they show up with a bunch of shiny strange H&Ks they'll stick out like sore thumbs.
The main disadvantage is lack of accuracy, especially at longer ranges. That's not a big problem though as many Morrow Wind participants will not be skilled shots anyways -- they're doctors, and scientists, and other such types that will be rebuilding society. Just include a few more advanced rifles for the Force Recon type participants, and let the everyman's weapon be the AK.
I'd also think that it makes a lot of sense to issue shotguns to each team; nothing beats a shotgun for close in personal defense.
Using a standard Colt .45 for a personal sidearm also makes a lot of sense. Widely available as surplus, won't draw attention, and is pretty darn effective (especially compared to the useless 9MM).
@Vedron: Thanks for the comments, there is a lot of good in your suggestions.
My issue with the AK47 is as you note, it's accuracy. The very features that make it so dependable also make it so that it while you're know the direction the lead is flying, that is nearly the extent of your control :)
Ok, I overstate a little.
However I've watched skilled rifelmen fail to hit a man-sized target at 100 yards with the AK47 with multiple attempts. This is why that weapon is almost always used in full-auto mode, as it gets hits by sheer amount of shots going downrange toward the target. Spray and Pray is SOP for the AK47.
That wasteful use of ammo isn't a great idea for the Project.
You make a great point about many of the Project personnal being effectively non-combatants. I would agree that Shotguns might be an excellent choice for them or perhaps a SMG/PDW. Rifles will be for those with a Military/Police background, and most teams include one or more of those.
We strongly agree on the Colt .45, although I have concerns about female/older users much like the issue with .308 rifles. In her 20s my wife handled the .45 without problem, but now finds herself shying alway from it as just too much gun. But the 9mm is such a poor choice. The .40 SW is excellent, but not found in a military sidearm...
I think the pistol, shotgun and SMG/PDW is worth a follow up article or two.
Okay. As listed in the gun rules, the 5.7x28mm round is used in both the P90 and the FiveSeven pistol, they're the only 2 weapons we have written up that use this round. There are three options, the 31gr, 55gr and 77gr rounds, the 31 grain is an AP round and has enough penetration to easily get through anything less than NIJ Class III Armour, though damage is mediocre when being shot from the P90 doing roughly the same damage as a 9mm round as an AP, and far less with the 55 and 77grain versions which are subsonic. An interesting addendum to this round that isn't seen in any other guns in the system is that Penetration and Damage stats become halved after 600 ft, which really won't be an issue because the round is not designed to shoot that far. It's not even in the same league as the NATO round which is triple the range or better in pretty much every weapon I have listed that uses it. So a summary of the round is that it's a good low-report round, usable in both the pistol and rifle but has almost laughably bad stopping power. The AP round has some of the best penetration out there (especially when you consider you can get that penetration capability in a pistol) but it's low range and stopping power make it not competitive as a rifle round.
Oh, and the p90 is listed at being very prone to misfire if you drop it, I believe this was because of the way the rounds are stacked in the clip, but it is notable that the rules I have here don't include that issue in any other gun.
As for the 5.56x45mm we have 2 types. The Jacketed Soft Point and the Full Metal Jacket, both are 55 grain. The difference in Penetration between the FMJ round and the JSP is pretty marginal, though it might mean the difference between penetrating a NIJ Class II vest or not. Stopping power is mid-level for a rifle but considerably better than any version of the FiveSeven round, and range is good. Recoil is considerably more of a factor with the NATO round than it is with the FiveSeven.
Mostly I think the FN's to be good spy game guns where sneaking or working close-range. For war and open theatre where you need power, reliability and range you want the M16 and it's variants.
Note, that I'm not an expert on firearms or rounds in any way, I'm just interpreting the data as presented in the game. I didn't design the gun rules, the guy who did is far more of a gun nut than I.
@Helmsman: the data for the 5.56x45mm is for the older M16A1 ammo, not the newer version which has a different rifle twist and uses heavier ammo.
But other than that nickpick, I don't see much there to disagree with. The FiveSeven is an on-going debate and there are people who claim it is more effective than you indicate.
But it appears your gun nut stuck with the math and not the sales pitch. For what it's worth, I tend to agree with that approach.
Does the game include blended metal ammo?
No BM ammo unfortunately. Oddly there have been a large number of firearm advancements in the past few years that the game has missed out on. Once I get this published and can convince Dixon to start working on the new technology for supplements we'll probably get all that crazy stuff. And the guns that I have listed as using the 5.56x45mm round are the Colt M16A2 and M4, the Vektor CR21, and the Steyr AUG. No H&K's using the 45mm are statted so I'm quite interested in the 416.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not discounting the FN's effectiveness at all, it's a wicked round, and as a pistol probably one of my favorites. The AP version has penetration that rivals lots of FMJ rifle rounds. So maybe it doesn't leave a crater the size of a dinner plate, it's still pretty comparable and that guy in expensive armour is gonna be quite surprised when your little pistol has aerated his lungs.
I'm actually playing in a Morrow Project game currently (using WoD rules). In our game, the standard issue (though there is some variability) is a modified Stoner System... for the sake of flexibility.
@Helmsman: No problem, at this point it would be difficult to determine the effectiveness of Blended Metal, all we really have is the sales pitch and an example or two.
Much like the FiveSeven which has seen little real use yet. To be honest I doubt that it's effective as your latest post here indicates, it's almost like you changed your mind.
@szilard: I considered the Stoner system, but it's been out of production for years and was never may in numbers required by the project in any case.
It's maintainance problems were worse than the M16 (a killer right there IMO) and the need for a capable LMG receiver as the center of any of its rifle/carbine versions means the weapon is overweight (by almost a whole kg over the M16).
I've fired the L85A1 and an M16 on outdoor ranges (for sport) and found the M16 doesn't kick nearly as much as the L85. The UK nearly went entirely H&K but the government wanted to keep alive Lee Enfield, a historic rifle manufacturer. The cheapest bid.
Post apoc, I'd go with H&K.
Well I said in my first post that the round was capable of penetrating NIJ Class IIIa armour, which is pretty skookum as far as soft armour goes. A lot of rifle rounds won't even penetrate NIJ Class II armour, though even without penetrating they're still pretty likely to knock the person they're shooting on their ass. (Yes game does cover damage transference, you sure you don't want to try it out? Schedule is quite flexible.)
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